Proof that God does/doesn't exist.

[Dr_Phil]

This is some really good questions.
Lucky me you don't "tend to engage in threads like this"!
If you would, I would not be an atheist any more!

I think I need to think a little 'bout the things you've said and come back to this later..
(I need to read some scientific articles on wikipedia )

[tatampoy]

Now here comes my question:<br>Who created God, and from what?<br> <br><br>What was the reaction that created God?<br>The universe is a very, very, very big place.<br>What is the odds that it wouldn't be a single planet with life in this huge universe with millions and millions with planets?<br><br>The explosion didn't create the trees. It's called "Evolution"<br>The explosion didn't create the rivers. The water and wind did it.

<br><br>I tend not to engage in threads like this, as they only provide frustration and never resolve. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. It's reasonable assume that this thread will not change the aforementioned facts. Notwithstanding the above, I decided to try my hand at participating in it.<br><br>You ask very good questions, although unfortunately, the same argument can be countered against you.<br><br>Ask yourself: Who created the universe? No-one? Okay, I'm fine with that.<br>The universe has always existed then, correct?<br><br>Now, taking into consideration the laws of thermodynamics, you can make some safe assumptions about the universe.<br><br>Firstly, Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. (i.e. There is a fixed constant of energy available in the universe, it is not increasing, nor decreasing)<br><br>Secondly, systems utilizing energy tend to increase entropy. (The utilization of energy results in it dispersing into less and less usable forms)<br><br>You can make the assumption that entropy is always increasing with time, except in 100% efficient systems (there are few, if any) due to the 2nd law of thermodynamics (and moreso the zeroth law, but let's keep this simple)<br><br>Time goes up, Entropy goes up.<br><br>Now. Due to the assumptions of the previous statements, you can follow the below path:<br><br>1. Infinite/Maximum Entropy is not present in our universe<br>-- We can utilize energy, and it is still transforming from one form to another<br>2. As Time increases, Entropy increases (Law #2)<br>3. As Entropy increases, Energy becomes less and less usable, in that there is no reason for it to transfer because it would be in equilibrium if infinite entropy was reached (See Law #0)<br>4. There is an origin in time, because:<br>-- Again, as time increases, entropy increases, So:<br>-- If there was no beginning to time, it would extend into the past infinitely<br>-- Meaning that we would have infinite entropy<br>-- But we do not, as we are able to utilize it (transfer of energy still possible, no universal equilibrium, see law #0)<br>5. Because there is an origin in time, you can assume that the universe has not always been present (in that it did not exist before time)<br>6. Because the Universe did/could not exist before time, something that is without time is what created it.<br><br>Your homework is to find out what that something was.<br><br>But basically, <br>

Now here comes my question:<br>Who created God, and from what? <br>...<br>What was the reaction that created God?

<br>Who created the universe, and from what?<br>What was the reaction that created the Universe?<br><br>Bonus points if you butcher this post with quotes, and completely nullify all points presented, because I'm tired, and have no idea what I just wrote. It may make no sense, and I don't feel like proofreading it :]<br><br>EDIT: Let us try that again.. Notepad's word-wrap double spaced everything lol

Second this..just like to add... as the law of thermodynamics states that energy could not be created nor destroyed, it simply brings the question of "how then energy came to be then?" There must be Someone beyond all this, who is omnipotent enough to be exempted from these laws...something perhaps...beyond human comprehension---God. Now, people ask...where did God come from? I could say this, believing in God, He is known to be omnipotent, omniscient, etc (in short, waaay beyond your comprehension) We, as humans, only have a limited knowledge to this world. The universe around us is so complex that we still can't fully comprehend it...what more if we try to comprehend the Creator of the universe so complex...I believe that the Creator would be FAR MORE complex that its creation....

[Zelth]

As what tatampoy said, I agree with him/her. I'm not sure if scientists these days can know how long ago was the so-called "beginning of time" but if there was nothing in the beginning, how did energy come into existence. But I don't want to make a huge post of this...well because....most people already said this argument...so yeah...so point in saying it all over again.

[obscurant1st]

I personally am athiest. And my reasoning behind it is this,

We are all made of atoms, chemicals and the such. EVERY atom in the universe is in a certain spot doing one thing at this very moment. The brain works chemically (to my understanding). So if every atom is in a certain spot right now every chemical reaction is bound to happen. Therefore there is no free will. Everything that is going to happen is bound to happen. Including whether or not you believe in god. If there is a god and I do not believe in him I supposedly go to hell. Well that makes no sense with my logic. Because there is no free will. So it seems illogical that s/he may exist. And if s/he does exist everyone gets the same after life IMHO.

oh yeah..so u hv an explanation for hw v r made of..
probably u ll hv explanations or hw atoms r made of tooo..
n btw how do they came in this world..
also i'm interested to knw hw this world came here..
..i hv d answer if u dont hv..
it came from an unknown power..that v cld nvr explain..
n i always respect a power that is above me..
i think all well beings do that ..
respect the power..
n this one power i call it as GOD..
it/he/she cn do nethin..coz this is the power n the secret that made this world ...
i believ in GOd..i respect GOd...

[Dredric1]

there is no proof for GOD or no GOD
there is supporting evidence but no proof

[Silent-Shadow]

I personally am athiest. And my reasoning behind it is this,

We are all made of atoms, chemicals and the such. EVERY atom in the universe is in a certain spot doing one thing at this very moment. The brain works chemically (to my understanding). So if every atom is in a certain spot right now every chemical reaction is bound to happen. Therefore there is no free will. Everything that is going to happen is bound to happen. Including whether or not you believe in god. If there is a god and I do not believe in him I supposedly go to hell. Well that makes no sense with my logic. Because there is no free will. So it seems illogical that s/he may exist. And if s/he does exist everyone gets the same after life IMHO.

It's ironically for that exact reason that I feel that there is, and has to be some form of a 'god' that created us. You think completely randomness would form such a perfect alignment of "things" start at atoms and growing to be interactive cells, all the way to entire galaxies? Surely our minds can't fathom it, but something HAD to have made it all work.

[radicool_systemite]

Hi Not stephen,

I think there may be a few problems with your logic...

So if every atom is in a certain spot right now every chemical reaction is bound to happen.

Words like "every" seldom add credibility to arguments like this because you can't possibly know what every atom in the universe is doing or not doing. It is an assumption to say that every atom in existence is "bound" to chemically react.

Therefore there is no free will. Everything that is going to happen is bound to happen.

Say that everything that will happen will happen is meaningless in the context of using that knowledge to prove that there is no free will, since free will choices also "happen". Just because things "happen" does not mean that those things cannot be a result of free will. No one forced you to not believe in a God. You chose not to believe. Otherwise you are forcing us to disregard your argument on the basis that it is something you are forced to believe, rather than something you have chosen to believe.

[AtlasDark]

Free will is a rather broad term. What would we define as free will? Personal liberties that we may follow at our whim?

[Cruentus_Canis]

Well I'll argue for God. It's simple, you can use your science to try and prove me wrong, but eventually you will run out of answers. You explained about atoms, but why are they there, what made them so, and if they are made of tinier things, what made THOSE so, and so on. Until you can answer every single question then where else to look, but up. ^_^

[CyborgPirateNinja]

Second, it does not take into account the fact that humans are self-aware. Unlike purely deterministic systems that act entirely upon stimulus and response, we have the ability to examine our own thought processes - to see the gap between stimulus and response, action and reaction, and rewrite ourselves through our actions as we see fit. Unfortunately, not many fully develop the ability to do so.

The human brain works, Thats a fact, How it works doesn't matter.
But what about self-awareness?
I might be the only one feeling and learning while the rest of you are all mindless drones driven by chemical reactions in their heads that simulate random choice, Human emotions and more. (which basically I am, But I cannot feel what you feel lol)

So I ask everyone in this topic:
(As seen in another topic)
We take a watch, We deconstruct it and throw it in one of our pockets.
We shuffle the pocket and take out the watch.
The watch (probably) wouldn't be constructed.
But given infinite tries, With only limited parts, We could create a watch by only shuffling our pocket!
(So every chance bigger then zero gets reviewed and thus every state of the watch is observed)

Now, I fail to see that there is a god simply because we consist of parts.
Because the universe got shuffled with the correct seed that created us.

"Gods fingerprints are all around us.", What makes you so sure he created us?
Who or what created him because he too is intelligent?
(No, Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, So don't DARE to speak about the creation of the universe)

So what makes you sure you are correct? And why are you even selling it to thousands of people?